Episode 2. Science, Bach, and Square Dance (Part 1 of 2)

What happens when a pair of scientists take their sterile gloves off, put their cowboy boots on, and clear the lab floor for a hoedown? 

In this episode, we will explore how a power science couple, both classical music lovers from the east coast, became country music singing square dancers. 

In Part 1 of this interview, Professors Karin Rabe and Greg Moore talk about their love of science, their advice for aspiring scientists, their first experience with music and how they got into square dancing. For novices, they illustrate what square dance is with slides and videos. 

00:39: What do you study as a physicist?

01:43   Did you always know that you were going to study physics or science?

02:30. For high school students who want to pursue science in the future, what advice would you give them?

04:19  When you were growing up, what was your first experience with music like?

06:40  How did you get into square dancing?

11:03  What is square dance?

13:40 and 15:26  Video illustrations of square dance

ABOUT SCIENCE, MUSIC, AND SOCIETY PODCAST
A show that explores the intersection of science and music and their benefits to society through personal stories of scientists and musicians.

You can watch the entire video podcast on YouTube at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc83Bpg8hEEHuEXWk7qIJm2SbUMbww74j or listen to the audio podcast at https://ScienceMusicAndSocietyPodcast.buzzsprout.com

ABOUT SOPHIA SI
A high school senior in Houston, TX, who grew up playing the piano and loving science.

ABOUT KARIN RABE
A Board of Governors Professor of Physics in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ (http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~karin/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karin_M._Rabe) and member of the National Academy of Sciences.

ABOUT GREG MOORE
A Professor of Physics in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ (http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~gmoore/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Moore_(physicist)) and member of the National Academy of Sciences.

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Transcript

Sophia Si :

What happens when two scientists take their sterile gloves off, put their cowboy boots on, and clear the lab floor for a hoedown? From classical music lovers to foot-stompin’ square dancers, power science couple Karin Rabe and Greg Moore demonstrate how intertwining their passions for science and music enhances their careers and their lives together. 

Hi, Greg and Karin, welcome to Science, Music and Society. Super excited to have you both on here. Could both of you just individually tell us what you study as a physicist?

Karin Rabe:

I'm a materials physicist at particular. I do computations of materials and I work with experimentalists and interpret the results of experiments on the materials that they study and that we predict new materials as well.

Greg Moore:

I work in a branch of mathematical physics that I like to call physical mathematics, where we study the way mathematics informs, attempts to find the most fundamental equations of physics. And we find that to write the fundamental laws of physics we require ever increasing mathematical sophistication. And the interesting thing is that, it goes the other way, physical ideas have been used to make breakthroughs in modern mathematics.

Sophia Si :

From an early age, did you know that you were going to study physics or just science in general? How did you get interested in that?

Karin Rabe:

Oh yeah, I was always interested in science. My father was a civil engineer and my uncle and his father-in-law were cancer researchers at Sloan Kettering, and they just provided models for people who were very excited about, you know, the life of science. So that even when, I didn't know what science was, that had a lot of appeal for me.

Greg Moore:

Well, my grandmother was a science teacher, so I can't remember not being interested in science

Sophia Si :

For a high schooler who wants to pursue science in the future, what are some qualities that you think they should have in order to succeed in this field? Are there particular training or classes that they should take? What advice would you give?

Greg Moore:

Well, I, I think the main thing is curiosity and interest in puzzle solving, curiosity, trying to understand things.

Karin Rabe:

And I think, and in terms of courses and preparation, I think the most important thing for sciences, like physics is math, is a really solid grounding in mathematics . So if you're interested in physics, I generally encourage students to take as, you know, go as deep as they can into mathematics. That's the language of physics . And so then they're prepared to dig into physics.

Greg Moore :

Goes all the way back to Galileo in the essay called the Assayer, where, he says that the book of nature is written in the language of mathematics. He didn't literally say that, but that's the way it's usually paraphrased.

Sophia Si :

Yes. Yeah. There's also a quote by Steve jobs that he gave at a commencement speech and he was saying, stay hungry, stay curious. And I think that also really applies to this.

Greg Moore:

Absolutely.

Sophia Si:

Yeah, because there's always so much more that you can do with physics. So, yeah, I totally agree. On a different note though, I remember one of the first times that we met, it was in the Flug Forum in Aspen and both of us wanted to play the piano.

Greg Moore, Karin Rabe:

<laugh>

Sophia Si:

I was wondering, growing up, what were your first experiences with music like?

Karin Rabe:

Yeah, that was an interesting question. So I actually have a very distinctive memory of, as a very young child going to a Carabo-Cone class. And I don't know if you know that method of music instruction, but, there was a big, big music clef on the floor, and we were supposed to jump from note to note. And I guess as the music played, like when the music went up, we'd jump up on the clef and, and jump down and, you know, I don't remember anything else about it, but I just remember jumping around on the music clef <laugh>

Greg Moore :

Well, I don't know. I think probably my first musical experience was my mother singing to me as a baby, but I don't remember that. I do remember taking piano lessons as a very young kid and really liking my teacher.

Sophia Si :

What age did you start playing piano?

Greg Moore :

I don't know. Maybe six or seven. I don't remember exactly.

Karin Rabe :

But when we knew each other in college, Greg would play the piano after dinner every day, sometimes for a couple of hours.

Greg Moore :

Yeah. I did a lot of piano playing. In high school too

Karin Rabe :

Yeah. And like in the dining hall where there was a piano. So, yeah, I guess that, that piano competition goes back.

Sophia Si :

Greg, do you still actively play the piano?

Greg Moore:

Not since I started square dance calling.

Sophia Si :

Oh, okay.

Greg Moore:

There's only 24 hours in a day. I'm still doing a lot of science and, square dance calling. I still do music because square dances calling involves singing so I'm basically switched a few years ago from piano, intense piano playing to singing.

Sophia Si :

Okay. I see.

Greg Moore:

That was one of the hardest decisions about, you know, starting to do square dance calling, was I realized that I'd have to make a choice there.

Sophia Si :

Right. How did you get into square dancing?

Greg Moore :

Ah,

Karin Rabe :

Aha. Yeah, so we were thinking that we wanted to do something that would, you know, help our aging brain. And we read that dancing is the perfect, it has every element that you could possibly want to, counteract the effects of aging. It's got, you know, the music, it has motion, it's got, social interaction and it's fun. And so we, we had done some kind of square dancing at an outdoor festival, and I had done some, a long time ago. So we just went on Google and, and looked for a place where we could do square dancing around here and to make a long story short. It actually turns out that at the nearest square dancing club here, which is called Rutgers Promenaders, it used to be a Rutgers college club. We have two of the best callers in the region. So we just by accident, stumbled on a club with these really skilled and talented and fun callers. And we just got sucked in and never turned back.

Greg Moore :

I might add you have some great callers in the Houston area.

Karin Rabe :

That's true.

Sophia Si :

Really? I didn't know that

Greg Moore :

One of the legendary callers of all time is actually north of Houston.

Karin Rabe :

Right. And we're actually coming to Houston next week to Willis, which is, you know, just we're right near Conroe to his school to study with him for a week.

Sophia Si :

Wow.

Karin Rabe :

Yeah. So he has a school and we, and a few other people are coming from around the world to spend a week working with him and improving our singing calls.

Sophia Si :

Wow, cool. I might just have to go check that out. So this was all before COVID . You got into square dancing before COVID hit, right?

Karin Rabe, Greg Moore:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Karin Rabe :

We started dancing in 20 16.  And then we started calling in 2017.

Sophia Si :

Oh, okay. And when you started calling, did you just pick that up, while you learn how to square dance? Or did you have to take lessons for that?

Greg Moore:

Square dance calling is incredibly hard. Karen mentioned that we had two superb callers at Rutgers ruminators. One of them, Betsy Gotta, is an internationally known caller. And she offered a local school on square dance calling, which was only a bicycle ride away. So we said, okay, here's the master. If we're ever gonna learn how to do this, this is a great opportunity. So we went to her school, which is just a bicycle right away. It was a couple of weekends.

Karin Rabe:

Yeah. It was maybe about six weekends.

Greg Moore :

Something like that, something like six Saturdays. And that's how we got started. Since then we've been to other schools and yes, there are square dance calling schools, and it takes a lot of training. It's one of those things like piano playing, right. That looks so <laugh> You know, Bach once said that piano playing is easy. All you have to do is press the right keys at the right time. You know, what's the problem. Well it's a little bit like that with square dance calling. Looks very easy and there are even stories of dancers who come up to the caller and say, oh, I can do that. This is, you know, this looks pretty easy and they try and they fall flat on their face. It takes a lot of training.

Sophia Si :

Yes. Yeah. I watched your videos and it's a lot of like, I guess when you're dancing, it's a lot of like you have to be ready for the next move. Right. Because there are just so many, I guess with the calling, there are just so many different things that you can do, but I also realized we didn't really get into this, but could you just briefly explain to our audience what square dancing is?

Karin Rabe :

Yes. Okay. Right. Why don't I share the screen for that. Cuz we have a few slides that we, so the very basics of modern square dancing is that it's a dance form with four couples who start arranged in a square. And in the picture you see the, the four couples, at an MIT club called Tech Squares. And so there's, a boy, the boys are on the left of the couple. The girls are on the right of the couple and that those are just dancer designations. Any anybody who identifies as any gender or non-binary can dance either part as long as they just remember which part they're dancing. The dancer is led by a caller who issues the commands, the calls, which are code words or phrases for established sequences of dance moves that the dancers know, the moves associated to the call as the caller delivers them, dancers don't know the sequence ahead of time. So they have to react. They react in real time. And you know,

Greg Moore:

So that's part of the fun,

Karin Rabe :

That's part of the fun. Yeah. And callers might follow a pre-planned sequence of calls or in, you know, in many cases they're improvising as people dance.

Greg Moore :

Okay. So, you know, some calls harken to the historical roots of square dancing, which is in folk dancing, from many parts of the earth. And, there are calls like Dosado and Allemande left and Promenade, which clearly are referring to, French folk dancing from hundreds of years ago. Then there are descriptive calls if you imagine that, group of eight people on the sides of a square. And I said, all, join hands up to the middle and you come on back. Well, everybody would know what to do. They would join hands and they would go up and, and step back or draw, join hands, circle, left circle to the left around you go. And they would know what to do instinctively. And then there are other calls with very colorful names where you have to be taught, what is the meaning of the call? There are several steps involved and, those on the screen, you see some names of those like Ferris wheel and Recycle and Chain Reaction and Tally Ho so,

Karin Rabe:

Right. So we can, just to explain a little bit more about what the dance experience is like. Dances are a series of 15 minute sessions called tips. And the first half of the tip is a pattern section where a caller just calls the calls to music and people dance. And we have a little clip, you know, that shows a well known caller, calling to a large floor here,

Caller in square-dance video:

Greg Moore:

So you might notice a few things. There are many squares on that floor. It's a crowded room. So there are many groups of eight people dancing together, cooperating together, collaborating together. And they're also having a great time. You can see a lot of smiles and when you hear the Allemande L eft, that's like the, you might have heard a woo or, you know, a little cry of a joy, because that means that they've executed everything correctly and they know they're in the right place and they're ready to go to a right left grand, which is easy. And they've, they've done all the hard stuff really easily. Right. Really well. And so let's, shall we go on? So there's maybe one more example.

Karin Rabe :

I think Greg just wanted to show one other short video clip where you can actually see a little bit better, what what different calls are like, so should,

Greg Moore :

Should we just, so this is from Tech Squares with another great caller Ted Lizotte calling,

Karin Rabe:

Right. The calls, the sequence of calls is listed on the right hand side. So you can, as you can hear the call, you can read them from the list and also see the group do it.

Ted Lizotto calling in the video :

Pick a bow to the partner. walk around your corner, turn your partner up on the left, head ladies center for the teacup chain. Head square through, swing through, boy run around the girl, couples circulate, chain down the line, send her back with a Dixie style, trade the wave, all eight circulates, swing through here. Boy run around a girl, bend the line, load the boats .

Karin Rabe:

So that was just a clip

Sophia Si :

Greg, you mentioned how couples, they know that they're in the right position and they're ready to go on. How do they know if they're in the right position or not?

Greg Moore :

Because at the beginning. so imagine again, you have a square with couples on each side. So the couples, the two people and the couples are called partners. naturally enough. Well, on, on the next side, adjacent to the partner is what's called the corner. And so if they're doing an Allemande Left with the corner, and then they see their partner, then they know they've done it right. And then you're gonna hear cheers and, you know, and whoopies and all things like that, because, what you saw in the previous one, or all in both of those clips is people are executing fairly complicated moves, and it would be easy to make a mistake to turn right. When you're supposed to turn left or something like that.

Karin Rabe:

Or two people get switched by

Greg Moore :

And so after all of that, that's sort of the dessert, you get the Allemande Left and, you know, woo it's such a rush actually to resolve that. because you've been working in this complicated pattern with all these different people, and then you get back to the person you started with, and it's very satisfying.

Sophia Si:

Oh, okay. I see.

Karin Rabe:

Then you say promenade home you're with your partner, or you are home, you know, and everyone know, and then you get started again

Greg Moore :

And people really get excited. People really love that when it works

Sophia Si :

Yeah. I can tell. I also know that you just came back from a square dancing convention, I think last month in June.

Greg Moore:

That's right.

Sophia Si:

How many of those conventions do you typically attend a year?

Karin Rabe:

We went to more before the pandemic, but I guess we'd probably go to about, at least four or five times a year to different weekend festivals and the national convention weekend festivals

Greg Moore:

That was before COVID. Right. And so now people are getting back in. Yeah, we are planning to go to,

Karin Rabe:

One or two,

Greg Moore:

One or two, not quite at, at the same level, but, there is live dancing, which is started up, pretty much everywhere now.

Sophia Si:

And then during COVID there were virtual conventions.

Greg Moore:

Yes. Yes. Okay. So the square dancing community, during the lockdowns, the worst part of the pandemic, the square dancing community responded to that in an interesting way by doing what's called, dancing over zoom. So,  the caller would call like Karen and I would be sitting here calling over zoom. And because people couldn't get together in a hall, they would basically be dancing in their living room or garage or kitchen or wherever. And because they aren't going to get eight separate people together. There probably it's just two people in a household. They would have to dance with phantoms. So they would have to not only do all these moves, but also imagine where they are in the square and where the phantoms are.

Karin Rabe :

Although to make it easier, we also modified the square dancing. So it was two couples instead of four. Okay. So they were fewer imaginary people.

Greg Moore :

Yeah. But, but still, it does require a higher skill level.

Karin Rabe :

So not everyone,

Greg Moore:

Not, it's not,

Karin Rabe:

Not everyone enjoyed that,

Greg Moore :

But there is actually an international community. I mean, we've met people from far away from Australia and British Columbia

Karin Rabe :

And right. And actually today at lunchtime, we were dancing with people from Australia and Germany,

Greg Moore :

Austria,

Karin Rabe :

Canada, Austria

Greg Moore :

you know, so there's this international community of zoom dancers. Right. So that was something which was enabled by,

Sophia Si :

Right. That was one benefit by zoom

Karin Rabe:

It was one

Greg Moore :

Silver lining.

Karin Rabe :

Yeah. Silver lining. You always take what you can get. Yes.