Episode 1. The Physicist Who Sings (Part 2 of 2)

In Part 2 of the interview, Professor Phillips discussed his West Indies upbringing and his unlikely path to opera. You can watch the entire video podcast on YouTube at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc83Bpg8hEEHuEXWk7qIJm2SbUMbww74j

From an aspiring poet to an established physicist who advised the President on science policies, to an award winning opera singer, Philip Phillips embodies how true success incorporates passion.

00:20 West Indian parents are very focused on education 

07:53 You sing the opera. How did that come about?

10:00 I had never sung until 7 years ago 

10:44 I don’t shy away from a challenge. Prior experience is not something that I necessarily view as a must before I try something 

12:46 When I was in college, these things you do that you just never think about ended up being important in the end

26:14 Opera is just another avenue for exploring how contorted human emotions can be

26:30 Watch Philip Phillips sing an aria 

ABOUT SCIENCE, MUSIC, AND SOCIETY PODCAST
A show that explores the intersection of science and music and their benefits to society through personal stories of scientists and musicians.

ABOUT SOPHIA SI
A rising high school senior in Houston, TX, who grew up playing the piano and loving science.

ABOUT PHILIP PHILLIPS
An established professor in the Department of Physics at University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (https://physics.illinois.edu/people/directory/profile/dimer and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Phillips_(physicist)) and opera singer who garnered top prizes (1st Place, 2020 National Association Teachers of Singing (NATS), 2nd Place, 2022 American Prize in Vocal Performance http://theamericanprize.blogspot.com/2022/05/national-winners-men-in-opera-and-art.html). His performances can be viewed at  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDZpnXiuFA0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSN05n8j09E.

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Transcript

You were born in Tobago, right? 

I was born in Tobago. 

How old were you when you left? 

I was 10. 

How do you think that upbringing really influenced your trajectory? How do you think it influenced your musical trajectory and your science? 

I don't know if you know anything about west Indian parents, but west Indian parents are very focused on education.

So I grew up in a west Indian household and that was the number one thing, we all had to do something that was challenging. 

I probably internalized that differently. I thought that meant yet to go and do something hard. So I've always been looking for something deep.

It was just the way I was wired, you know. My siblings all went into more traditional careers, but you know, it's not as if they're, you know, they didn't go into physics. Okay. They picked the standard careers that people have medicine and law, you know, and whereas that didn't really interest me. So with that, as the foundation and my parents maintained a west Indian household as I was growing up. So yeah, that, that was definitely the major driving force and inquiry, you know? Uh asking questions, you know, 

Musically, my father played the clarinet, my sisters played the violin. I didn't have a whole lot of musical talent that was clear in those days. We couldn't afford a piano, so I did music theory

As a kid. Which was just fractions. So I liked it. 

Yeah. There's so much math involved in that, you know, there's like common denominators. 

It's not math. It's arithmetic. 

Let's not elevate it. it's arithmetic. And so to me it was just, you know with some fractions. Okay. I'll do this for a while. No problem folks. I'll uh, 

 I think this is hard. No, this is not hard. Just some adding some fractions that have different, different denominators. Uh, how hard is that? Um, so that was my first experience with music in Boston. We moved to Boston when I was 10. 

It was interesting. I was taking piano lessons, but we didn't have a piano 

So I never practiced. 

So it was all theory. And as a result, the teacher just gave me some music books and I would just go and do you know it was fraction exercises. 

I would say that's pretty talented. I would say that's pretty good. 

That's just A math background. Let's not, uh, elevate it. 

Music theory, piano lessons, how have your experiences with music changed as you've grown? 

When we moved out of Boston, my parents did get a piano. I came from an educated family, but they didn't have a lot of means. My father was a professor 

There were five kids. My mother didn't work. And so, you know, I think being in an academic town, you know, you could easily find a piano. Okay. So then I started taking piano lessons 

But once again, I found, I liked more the theory behind it than actually playing a piano. That was clear that piano was not my thing. 

But my younger sister and brother played the piano and she was a piano performance major in college. 

There was music all around. My parents always listened to very good classical music, you know, they, they would tell us this recording is the best recording of the Brandenburg concertos, you know, and know you're a kid and you go, okay, fine, whatever. Um, 

So the piano was, it was clear. That was not my thing. So I dropped that. And then when I was in college, I picked up the guitar 

I had several friends who played classical guitar and that really intrigued me because the sounds were just incredible. 

So, and there was a guitar teacher that you could take classes from at the college I attended. So I'd started studying classical guitar and that was my instrument for, uh, or, uh, you know, through college, I found it as it was a way of relieving stress. So music to me has always been a stress reliever. 

And so I played the guitar for, you know, through being 50 or so. Yeah. Yeah. 

I mean, that was, that was my instrument. 

It's funny that you mentioned that because I definitely think it's a great way to get escape from, you know, homework or school. Or whatever that's going on. Um

Right. 

So for you music, music is nonverbal. 

For me, it's not, 

Yeah. For you it's nonverbal, you can just kind of like, um, but yeah. I have to make the voi, the, the language come alive and so.  But we haven't gotten to that part yet. Okay. 

You mentioned listening to classical music as a child. Um, what was your favorite piece of music to listen to? 

Brandenburg Concertos. I, the (inaudible) recording. I even remember the label cause you know, it was 

Just beaten into my head, uh, that, and then I remember Jean-Pierre Rampaul had a series of recordings on the flute. 

definitely the Brandenburg Concerto. That was pretty formative. 

I actually have never listened to that yet [Sophia's note: I actually have but I didn't realize they were part of the Brandenburg Concerto.]

You've never listened to the Brandenburg. Well, you should

I never have, but that will be my next thing to listen to 

The thing about music, you know, there's always music to listen to. 

That's so true. Especially because, you know, there's such a long history behind it and there are so many different types of music that I feel like everyone can find, you know, one form of music that really intrigues them and, you know, you sing the opera. Um, 

And that's funny because a lot of people, when they think of physicists, they don't think about opera. You know, they don't really think about music in general. And so how did that really come about? 

Well, those who, those who know me well, um, know that I would tell them the only other thing I really wanted to be was an opera singer. 

It was physics or opera. And I actually developed a taste for opera. When I was in grad school, I was in grad school at U of Washington, which is, and Seattle is a great opera town. There's a Seattle Opera. 

An extremely good director. And I had friends who went to the opera. I didn't know a lot about it. I just started going to it. And it was like, wow, this is something I really want to be a part of. 

So I went to the opera because opera to me combines, combines a symphony. It combines, um, acting.  The stages are just out of this world. 

I mean, they're elephants. I saw Aida with Leontyne Price in San Francisco. There are elephants on stage. 

It’s like, think of just something extravagant then add something else to it. That's opera. The stories are just gut wrenching, look at the story of Don Carlos. Um, so, and then the voices just soar. So with me, it was like, what is there not to like about opera 

So it was really going to it that made me completely fall in love with opera. And I never thought I could sing it. 

It was just going to operas, you know, any opportunity I would be at the opera. 

You had no previous experience with, did you have any previous experience with singing in general or 

No. And this is what's really shocking is that I had never sung until seven years ago. 

I mean, my mother says, well, you know, I used to try to sing when I was vacuuming doing my chores, but and was very bad. Um, no, I, I, I did not have any experience. I just knew I loved opera. 

Wow. Um, so with no previous previous experience, um, 

How did I do this

That I don't shy away from a challenge 

So, and prior experience is not something I necessarily view as a must before I go and try something. 

So I decided, um, I would take voice lessons 

And um, so I auditioned to sing with Cynthia Haymon-Coleman 

Who was, you know, she had a big career in opera.

Uh, you can look her up and she taught at the U of, U at the U of Illinois and, uh, sent her an email, no response. And then I finally saw her doing a, you know, a rehearsal for an opera. And I was just blown away by all of these kids who could sing. So I asked her if I could audition for her.  And I, I had, I had nothing to audition with. I didn't even have the right voice type of aria. I auditioned with a tenor aria. 

With Dalla sua pace  <laugh>, you know, just a high tenor role, but, you know, I could read music. So I, I just sort of like stumbled through it. Then she said, why don't we start over? And that was it. That was March of 2015. 

As you talked about, there are so many different areas in opera, you know, there's theater, um, there's singing, there are just so many different, um, parts to it. Um, did you have to take any other classes for that? Did you have to take acting classes or is it, was it mainly just singing for you? 

Okay. So when I was in college, you know, these things you do that you just never think about 

End up being important in the end. So I I'm always open to new experiences and I was walking, you know, on campus one day and this friend of mine stopped me and said, Hey, we need some people for this play <laugh>. And, and I said, well, um, I couldn't get rid of him. So I finally said, okay, what's the play? And it was a play to play. It was a, the part, it was called the Serpent and the part they couldn't cast was the Devil. So that was, that piqued my interest, the Devil.

An interesting role, a devious individual 

So, um, so I, I, I actually had acting experience and the acting teacher in college was, was very, very good. And I, I paid attention to her. So I had some acting experience. That was it. A couple of plays. Okay. 

But the main thing in opera is just having the voice and, you know, I was being taught by one of the best: Cynthia Coleman. 

And you know, this, the teacher makes all the difference. 

And especially when it comes to voice, I mean, everyone at the U of Illinois wanted to work with her. So I was an outlier. Um, the best people in her studio were being picked up by the San Francisco Opera. Um, one of them at the time, uh, uh, Alex Nowakowski. Yeah. I mean, she just debuted at the MET 

um, you know, and then there was me, so studio classes with her were incredibly intimidating. 

So I would wait until the end to sing 

For me, when I play the piano, um, I feel like I learn a lot from both my teacher and also hearing other people sing. I mean, sorry, hearing other people play the piano, um, and you know, hearing all these recordings, um, do you think that the same thing applies for opera too? Like, were you able to learn, you know, not only from Cynthia, but also from, you know, all the other people in her studio as well? 

Oh absolutely. Look since I had no experience, I mean, I just heard a lot of opera. Um, I was a sponge when it came to just seeing what the technique was. And what I could understand of the technique and, you know, the best opera singers don't show their technique. Um, but I, from the lessons I was getting, I could see what, what I wasn't doing. Right. 

So the studio classes were just like, incredible. I mean

I mean, she had the best students at the, U of Illinois. Everyone wanted to work with Cynthia. 

So it, and there was, and it wasn't any secret that she was by far the best teacher. I have no idea why she took me. She said, well, every once in a while, Philip, you know, you sing a note and I go, wow. Oh, okay. 

But that's like one out of a million, you know

So I really have no idea why she took me. 

Commonality between science and music

That's amazing that you had that opportunity, um going back to science, how would you say, you know, how would you say that you see an intersection between, uh, music and science in your life, or do you think that they play completely separate roles for you? 

Well, the talents that are needed for science to do it at a high level and opera are somewhat similar. 

They both require incredible discipline. I mean, and the technical aspect of them, the technical things you have to master to be an opera singer. 

Pretty daunting. You know, you have to control the breath, you have to control. It has to be something natural that's coming out of that. 

It cannot seem forced. You look at the great opera singers. It's like, they're just singing as just an accident as they open their mouth. The best science seems almost like it's a natural thing. I mean, it's, it's very unnatural. You look at what it takes to do amazing things. You look at someone like Einstein. I mean, the thing about Einstein is he could hold in his head two views, which everyone else would view as contradictory. You know, uh, everything has the same speed of every, everything has the, has the same obeys, the same laws of physics, but the speed of light is a constant for everyone. 

How is that possible? 

If, because normally you subtract velocities when you're moving by a car. Well, your speed relative, the other car, you subtract them. 

When everyone measures the same speed of light, he could hold in his head, those things and make sense of it. So, you know, that is one talent that it takes. Um, um, you know, and if you have that talent, you'll do amazing things. There are other things that you, that you can have, but the thing underlying all of that is discipline 

Um, I'm not one of these people who sees, you know, poetry and great artistry necessarily in physics. I mean, I see that in opera, but I don't necessarily see that in physics. I see. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that, you know, what we do requires you to completely well, here's one thing, one thing they do say in opera surrender to the aria 

Okay. Leave nothing back. Okay. So, and their problems in science, you know, physics that you just have to completely commit to, you cannot do it halfway. And that's like, you see, you know, I mean, you just, cuz it consumes you and takes you places you just didn't think about. 

And so I would say, you know, this from, when you get into a piece, you, you, for example, pick, you know, the Rachmaninoff 3rd Concerto, right. Uhhuh, you you've played it. 

I have not, but 

Those are pieces, you know, that if you play those, you have to be committed.Because that is

Experience you cannot take lightly and you don't know how, how you're gonna end up on the other side. So

yeah. Um, I totally agree, because definitely when I'm performing and when I hear other people perform, you know, the best pieces are always played by people who can just completely get into the mood and they can, you know, understand the, you know, the emotions behind the piece. 

Um, you know, and they can really just transform themselves kind of into the piece kind of. And so I totally understand what you're trying to say. 

And it's also funny that you mentioned Einstein because Einstein was also a musician 

He played the violin. I forgot about that. 

Yes he did. And there is a quote, there is a quote from him and he says something like, I can't remember exactly what it said, but he says something like, um, you know, he couldn't, he could never imagine his life without music in it. And I think that is just so funny that, you know, he's this brilliant scientist who also is just, you know, so passionate about music and that's kind of the same with you because, you know, you're this great physicist you're, you know, so accomplished. And you're also, you know, so passionate about opera and you're able to perform in all these competitions, you know, national competitions and, um, you know, take lessons with one of the best teachers, um, at Illinois. So I think that's really incredible. 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I forgot about Einstein and you know, maybe it is the fact that he was, yeah. I, I, I like to just take things the way they are rather than tell stories, but it is interesting. The thing I think that is true about Einstein, he was able to entertain in his head a con, things that us mortals would view as a contradiction. And I think 

How he constructed special relativity is, is a classic example. 

But he just was true to it. He said that has to be true. Right. And then he figured he figured out what it meant, but there were few people who could do that, 

And maybe, you know, because he was a musician, he could see that, um, you know, sometimes as you well know when you're looking at a, at a piece and you know, the period it's written in, you can predict what the next note's gonna be. How are they gonna complete the phrase 

And you know, maybe he'd played enough pieces where he couldn't figure out what they were going to do next. 

And maybe in that way of internalizing what pieces are about, and you can't always figure out how the musical sentences go together, you just have to accept. That's what they did. Yeah. But there lots of notes that Puccini wrote that, you know, I just wonder,  you know, that was not necessary 

yeah. But as you said, you have to surrender yourself to the aria

Surrender yourself. 

You don't, you don't question Puccini that everybody 

Did exactly. You just do it. 

Do it. 

Exactly. So my last question for you, before I ask you to maybe perform something is, um, if you had to choose, you know, if you had to make a Spotify playlist and you could only put five songs on there of any kind, any songs ever, you know, it could be songs, it could be classical music, anything, what would you choose? 

Okay. So they'd probably all be opera arias. 

Uh, one would be Ella giammai ma’mo. It's from Don Carlos 

You know, the story of Don Carlos? 

Um, I do. I think 

You do. Okay. Tragic story. 

So king Filippo is sitting in his room. So for those of you who don't know the story of Don Carlos, I'll tell you the story 

The opera opens with his son and his bride-to-be exchanging how much they love one another mm-hmm <affirmative> but this exchange is interrupted. Someone comes and says, sorry, your bride has to be taken away. She is now committed to marry the king. Your father 

Okay. And, um, so the woman who was supposed to be his bride is now going to be  his step mother. 

It's just gut wrenching. 

But of course, you know, King Philippos that that's his name, realizes she doesn't love him. And so, um, he sings this amazing aria, Ella giammai ma’mo. She doesn't love me, you know, she never did. 

And, um, so that is an amazing aria. Okay. 

um, Dalla sua pace is, is right up there. It's a tenor aria, you know, um, uh, then there's this aria that Violleta sings in La Traviata. Um, I forgot the name of the area because I don't quite remember soprano Arias very well. Some of the Brandenburg Concertos 

Let me see. And I'm really just an opera nerd, you know? I mean it, yeah. Uh, it, uh, turns out, uh, an aria from that famous aria in Madam Butterfly when, um, she realizes that he isn't coming back. 

I mean the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I would say those would have to be on my list. 

Yes. I would say all of those are pretty powerful choices, so yeah. 

Yeah. The power of opera. I mean, it's just a lot of people think other stories are kind of trivial, but you know, there's stories and you know what, in life, isn't a story, you know, especially when you've had kids, you know, you have to try to get them to do various things and you make up stories, get them to do things. And so, you know, opera is just another avenue for exploring 

How contorted human emotions can be. 

So, uh, yes. Yeah. That's why I like it. 

To end this off, maybe, do you think you have a song that you could perform for us? 

Um, do you want the whole thing ‘cause these arias tend to be long? Um, or do you just, you just, just wanna snip it, 

Anything you're comfortable with, um, whatever you want. 

Okay. Uh, what language do you want 

um, which language are you uh, you know, most, most comfortable to sing it in?

Oh, we have to sing in all of them. So, uh <laugh> so, you know, you just one and I'll see what I can do. 

All right. Um, maybe let's do Italian. 

Okay. Italian. Okay. Okay. So I'll sing “Il lacerato spirito,” by it's um, Fiesco's aria in Simon Boccanegra. It's a bass aria. Course. It's bass. That's why I'm singing it. Um, okay. Let me just get the first pitch 

<singing>

Do you wanna hear more? 

That was great! Um, if you wanna keep going, go ahead. 

That is the, uh, that is the, uh, that's the recit. So I'll say a little bit of the aria. 

All right. Woo. That was amazing. Um, the, you know, I was able to feel your emotions through the screen, so that was great. 

well, thank you. Thank you. So yeah, the setup for that is, uh, Fiesco is a nobleman. He is sequestered his daughter in a palace so that she wouldn't be affected by things in the world. Well, you know how that story ends? 

Um, Simon Boccanegra breaks in, uh, and they've developed a relationship. She becomes pregnant. The opera opens with an, in, with an introduction, and in which it's clear that his daughter Maria has died at the hands of Simon Boccanegra

But she's left a child. So Fiesco comes in and sings this gut wrenching aria about I'm leaving this palace for the last <speaking in Italian> A te, l’estremo addio… palagio altero

And, um, he's cursing the palace and saying, I didn't protect my daughter. And that is what the aria is about. 

Wow. That is powerful. 

That's a standard bass aria. 

Yeah. Um, alright, well, thank you so much for joining the podcast, Philip. It was great having you 

No problem.

and, um, you know, thank you so much for sharing your stories. 

My pleasure.

Um, and I really enjoyed listening to them. 

Okay. Byebye. 

All right. Thank you so much. Bye.